From trash to torque

Show ID (00:04):
This is Power Onward, the podcast that unveils how power technology shapes your everyday life. You are listening to Power Onward.

(00:20):
What is Powering Your World? Power Onward. This is Power Onward, the podcast that unveils how power technology shapes your everyday life.

Kim (00:33):
What if the waste we throw away could power the trucks that bring our world to life, food waste, farm waste, and even trash from your local landfill. It's called renewable natural gas or RNG, and it's turning what we throw away into the fuel that keeps our world moving from package deliveries to long-haul trucking. RNG is quietly reshaping how goods get from point A to point B, pushing us all closer to a cleaner future. I'm Kim.

David (01:00):
And I'm Dave.

Kim (01:01):
So Dave, I've heard the phrase turning trash into transportation and it really does sound too good to be true. So talk to me about RNG.

David (01:09):
Sure, Kim. I like that phrase. I like to think of it. One man's trash is another man's treasure or fuel in this case. And when we think about trash in waste streams, did you know that we produce in the US over 300 million tons of trash per year? A ton per person per year. In addition, a lot of that's food waste. So 30 to 40% of our food goes into a waste stream. So that's just pure trash. And there's over 10 million dairy cattle in the US and that there is 5 million tons of wastewater biosolids, and those are just part of our waste stream, which are problems. There are problems that we need to resolve and RNG can be that solution, RNG, which is renewable natural gas. We always throw those three letters out.

Kim (02:05):
Yes, so RNG comes from waste, but what exactly does that process look like?

David (02:11):
So think about our trash going into a landfill, and so it breaks down the organic material, breaks down in a non-oxygen environment, so that's anaerobic. And so then it eventually produces methane and CO2 primarily. Now you can also artificially do that with digesters. Those are other waste streams like food waste that's diverted to a digester or dairy cattle manure or other animal waste streams or other ag waste. And then it's put into a digester and then anaerobically digested again without oxygen and outcomes methane, CO2 and just a few other things. So scrub those gases up or clean them up and now you've got effectively 95 or more percent pure methane. That's basically renewable natural gas, but it's exactly the same thing as natural gas. It's in our pipeline, it comes into our homes every day.

Kim (03:13):
Wow. That's not as complicated as I thought it would be. It really is just a series of chemical reactions and like you said, you scrub them up and clean it up and there it is.

David (03:22):
Yeah, you just separate out the CO2 can be captured or released separately and get out some moisture and things like that.

Kim (03:31):
So what type of vehicles and operations can actually benefit from RNG or renewable natural gas?

David (03:37):
So from a commercial and Cummins commercial vehicle space, we use engines, sell engines into transit buses, medium duty trucks, vocational trucks, and then regional and line haul trucks. It's everywhere. We have a diesel engine, we have a natural gas engine which can use renewable natural gas as a solution for that and then fits right into the operation that they're used to today.

Kim (04:05):
So exactly how does RNG help fleets, decarbonize? We had talked about sustainability, economic efficiency, and even a competitive edge. Right? Can you tell me more about that?

David (04:15):
That's right. So by using the waste stream and producing renewable natural gas and then displacing higher carbon fuel like diesel, it's a win-win for the environment because we get the reduction in our waste streams or managed or controlled, and then we're not using fuel that comes out of the ground, we're producing our own fuel and fleets can use that to then they've got a lower cost fuel in natural gas, renewable natural gas. So there's an economic win for them and there's a sustainability or an environmental, and depending on what they're going for, it's lower NOx. So nitrogen oxides into the atmosphere and it's also lower carbon. So from a well to wheel perspective, renewable natural gas, natural gas in itself is lower carbon intensity than diesel. And renewable natural gas can be an extremely low carbon intensity fuel. It can be negative in some cases like dairy manure.

(05:15):
By capturing that methane, it can be 300, 400, 500 negative carbon intensity. For those who want to know what does carbon intensity is effectively the equivalent CO2 per unit of energy. So if diesel's a hundred CNG can be about 80, and then when you go to renewable natural gas can be different sources and methods can be different numbers. So landfill gas to wastewater to dairy manure, and it can be really negative. In fact, California, they have a low carbon fuel standard system out there, so they measure all the fuels that vehicles use. And renewable natural gas has an average carbon intensity of minus 194 as compared to a hundred for diesel, and that's 99% of natural gas trucks and vehicles in California use renewable natural gas. So it's a huge win for the fleets, for California, for the environment for the United States,

Kim (06:28):
90% is way more than I would ever envision. I didn't realize how prevalent and how present this all is.

David (06:36):
Yeah, it's 99% in California and for the US overall it's over 79% of commercial transportation is using renewable natural gas.

Kim (06:48):
So this is probably why I've been hearing various companies such as waste management companies that are continuing to displace their diesel with RNG trucks. Right?

David (06:57):
That's exactly right. Over 60% of new refuge trucks are c and g or compressed natural gas. And so of that majority of them effectively are renewable natural gas. And some of the refuse companies produce their own natural gas or renewable natural gas because again, the landfills, they're huge sources of natural gas production. And so waste management as an example, does that very thing as do many of the others.

Kim (07:29):
Dave, you mentioned CNG. So what's the difference between CNG and RNG?

David (07:34):
So if you think about it, it's natural gas and it can be stored on a vehicle as compressed natural gas or as a liquid, but then the source of that gas can be fossil natural gas IE weld right out of the ground where it can be renewable natural gas. And so then that's coming from a renewable biodegraded organic material. So you always see C and G and RNG kind of thrown around C and G and LNG. You just really how it gets soared on the field.

Kim (08:09):
Got it. You mentioned the dairy farms and the first time one of our colleagues had told me that one of the dairy farm companies that I'm a big fan of, they use the methane from the ways from the cows on their farms to then fuel their fleets, which I thought was freely really efficient. So are there any other testimonials that showcase why RNG should matter to all of us or fun stories that we can talk about on this shit show?

David (08:34):
Love it. I love it. One of our customers that we started field testing with in the development program who are the X15N, they were going to haul manure for air farms to a digester. And when they realized the capability that the engine had, they were using charge wealth leader engines to do it already. They use the 15 wheeler to then haul milk because obviously the dairy cows, one of the things that comes out of a dairy cow is milk. And so they collect the milk in the Arizona area, and so they are able to haul over 120,000 pound tankers of milk with the X 15 in. So now they're hauling manure with natural gas engines or renewable natural gas as the fuel's being created there and they're going out and then collecting the milk from those same dairy farms and taking it to the dairy processing. So you've get almost a full circle economy there where the cows produce milk and it's hauled with renewable natural gas back to packaging. And then you have the excrement of the dairy cows that is then hauled away to a digester to then produce fuel to then run all of those trucks. So it's beautiful. And in fact, they even named their first test truck a big Bertha because it was such a heavy haul truck and they love it.

Kim (10:03):
Big Bertha is a very fitting name for that big hauler. I can't get over the fact that I am finding this full cycle very satisfying. And again, we're talking about excrement and waste and it's just how it comes together so beautifully for those companies. And again, very satisfying to see that full circle and have very minimal waste come from all of this.

David (10:24):
It's moving to see RNG displacing our diesel fuel and some might say it's utterly a great way to make use of that waste stream. I had to work my dad joke in there, Kim.

Kim (10:36):
I'm welcoming all the dad jokes and that one actually took me a little bit off guard, so that was a good one. All right. So I guess what I'm hearing is that RNG isn't really new, it's just better. And you had mentioned the X15N engine, and I remember hearing that it was in full production in our Jamestown engine plant up in New York. So how has this first year shaped the industry's view of natural gas as a viable solution?

David (10:59):
Sure. Yeah. RNG is not new. It's been around forever in various forms of how we use those types of waste streams, but the very first industrialized RNG facility was like in 1982 in New York on Staten Island. So a little fun fact for you, but now there's over 500 RNG production facilities. And so not only is the quantity of going from one landfill on Staten Island to now RNG production facilities, 500 plus operational today and another nearly 500 more either in construction or planned, the quantities growing and then the technology going into 'em to really optimize, make 'em the most efficient producers of renewable fuel. And so you talked about the one year anniversary, the X15N. It's been fabulous, right? We've had people refer to it as it's a game changer for the industry, which is pretty exciting to hear that reference.

(12:02):
And so there's been a lot of excitement, a lot of customers who were natural gas customers with us adopting, but also customers who have never used natural gas and they're trying it out, they're moving some of their fleet over. And then what really gets exciting is when we see repeat buys. So even within the one year we've got customers that jumped in the line right away, got trucks, tried 'em out, and now they've re-upped their order. And in some cases we've had a third order from customers, and that's all just within one year. It's really exciting. We've won some awards. I was just in New York City on behalf of Cummins, receiving an award for the X15N with FedEx Leadership Visionary Award from Energy Vision. We won an award through TMC just earlier this year, and heavy duty trucking awarded Cummins one of the top 20 new products just a couple years ago. So pretty exciting for to be a part of a program and an engine that is a game changer

Kim (13:11):
That's sensational all of this within a year. It's very telling and it speaks volume on the product. And for anyone who's listening on audio platforms and not watching on YouTube, Dave actually has his X15N come and shirt on to represent this. So he's a game changer and a trend setter now.

David (13:30):
Thanks, Kim.

Kim (13:32):
Earlier, I did want to touch on something else. You had mentioned the quantity of RNG being way more available than it has been before, and I think that's a common misconception about RNG. So tell me about some other misconceptions about natural gas.

David (13:47):
Sure. Some people like said, is there going to be enough? Is there enough? We continue to invent new waste streams. I mentioned a few, but those continue to grow as we try to manage the waste that we continue to produce. We're going to see landfill waste increase by 60 to 70% by 2050. That's staggering alone. So more RNG is coming and we're going to continue to have farms and produce food and produce waste there. So economically, some people think it's expensive, right? And it's not really natural gas is cheaper than diesel. Generally speaking, it's a much more stable fuel price. So therefore there's a huge economic win, a fleet to make that investment move over to natural gas, renewable natural gas, and then the payoff on that capital investment. At the same time, get the environmental, probably most people don't know it, but the US is a part of a methane pledge. We want to reduce globally methane by 30% by 2030, right? That's methane released into the atmosphere and there are all kinds of sources of that. But some of these ag waste landfills, those are sources of methane that get into the atmosphere and methane. Just another quick fact for you, Kim, it's 28 times worse than c2. So CO2 gets all the limelight it

Kim (15:22):
Does,

David (15:22):
Or all the blame does, but methane, 28 times over a hundred years kind of look at it's 28 times worse than co2. So our biggest impact we can make is really tackling that methane right away and we can make a huge impact

Kim (15:39):
For a long time, basically, since before we spoke, I really thought carbon dioxide was the biggest culprit. It was the biggest. We always talk about CO2 reduction and learning that methane is far more toxic and pollutant in the air. Again, it's a fun fact. Very interesting fact, but also not so fun because nobody wants that. Nobody asked

David (16:00):
For that. That's right.

Kim (16:01):
One of the things that we have discussed now is that the displacement of diesel technology into more of the natural gas, is this what we would consider a bridge fuel?

David (16:12):
It all depends on what you consider a bridge, but I think it's a very long bridge, right? So renewable natural gas, natural gas engines really are the easiest step into a low carbon fuel situation for a fleet. It slips right into their operation, fuels fast, it's very familiar kind of technology and really can do the job that diesel does. So that's the easy part, but it does pave the way for other future gaseous fuels, perhaps hydrogen or other technologies where it's just a lower carbon fuel, but maybe some other things to learn. So it was an easy step to take to start learning those things. And again, that bridge can be very long. We've got a lot of natural gas, we've got supply of renewable natural gas, and if I didn't say it enough times, it can be a carbon negative solution. So it's better than electricity today. Electricity is not carbon free from a well to wheel perspective, right? It is at the tailpipe. But if you consider from the source of the fuel, whether it's coal, natural gas or windlow or nuclear, renewable, natural gas is the only one that's truly negative.

Kim (17:31):
And we love baby steps. Like you said, just ease right in. Dip your toes in the water's fine.

David (17:36):
Exactly.

Kim (17:36):
We got a long way for this long bridge, so let's take that baby step. Alright, so before we wrap, I'd love to know what are drivers saying about their experience with their RNG trucks?

David (17:49):
So the best compliment that we've gotten is drives like mind diesel, and that's exactly what we're going for. So thinking back to that bridge question you asked now is we want this to be seamless. We want it to be non-disruptive because transportation companies, they're trying to do a job, whether it's hauling people in a school bus and get 'em to their homes at night or work in the morning, or a shipper hauling their goods to the store so that we can buy it. That's what they're trying to do. And what we want to do is make the transition to low carbon, no carbon fuels as easy and as painless as possible. So if we can make it drive like my diesel, maybe a little bit quieter and maybe there's not an odor that they may associate with diesel fuel, that's a great win. And so we continue to win customers over. Once they drive it, they're surprised. They're like, wow, I didn't expect that. And so that's the best thing we can hear.

Kim (18:53):
A pleasant surprise and a very strong user experience. What more could we ask for?

David (18:58):
Exactly.

Kim (18:59):
All right, Dave, I really appreciate your time today. Thanks for helping us fuel the conversation on how RNG continues to drive fleets forward.

David (19:07):
Hey, you're welcome. Thanks for having me, Kim.

Kim (19:09):
Anytime. Alright, so what's the big idea for this episode? Yes. Renewable natural gas has been around for a while, but the innovation happening is making it more powerful than ever. It's fuel made from waste that can power trucks, reduce emissions, and keep goods moving reliably across the country with technologies like the X15N engine. Cummins is making RNG a real part of the journey towards destination zero. The takeaway cleaner transportation doesn't mean starting over. It means getting smarter with what we already have. Power Onward.

Show ID (19:51):
Thank you for listening to Power Onward. Your support means the world to us. If you enjoyed this episode, please don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review on your favorite podcast platform. If you want to dig deeper on what we covered today, check out the show notes for additional links or go to cummins.com/podcast. Until next time, Power Onward. 
We are from Cummins, the company that's been innovating toward the future for more than a hundred years. We're no strangers to rapid change, global shifts and economic uncertainty. We want to be your constant during the energy transition whenever, wherever, forever, Power Onward.